Conservative Colloquium

An Intellectual Forum for All Things Conservative

Scary Islamic Doctrines

Posted by Tony Listi on February 29, 2008

The following are two specific Islamic doctrines that scare me. I wonder how mainstream they are, especially among Muslims who live in democracies. Do so-called moderate Muslims recognize them?

It is OK to lie to unbelievers?
Taqiyya and kitman (concealment and mental reservation from telling the whole truth with the intention to mislead) constitute the Islamic doctrines of religious deception against non-believers. As the prophet Muhammad said, “War is deceit” (Hadith 4:269). They have been adopted and practiced by both Shi’ites and Sunnis.

The Qur’an itself teaches deception of non-believers: “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (3:28). The distinguished commentator Ibn Kathir explains this verse, “Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than believers.” However, an exception is made for “those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly.”

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/bostonglobe080402.html : “One of the doctrines that emerges out of the Salafist school is ”Taqiyyeh,” Arabic for a process of concealment of true beliefs to confuse the enemy.”

The Qur’an’s tolerant verses have been cancelled?
Naskh or nasakhatha Ayat al-Sayf is the Islamic doctrine of abrogation. Basically, it means that Allah does not have to be consistent and can change or cancel what he tells Muslims: “None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah has power over all things?” (Qur’an 2:106). Therefore, the violent verses of the ninth sura, including the Verse of the Sword (9:5), cancel/void the peaceful verses, because the violent verses were revealed later in the Prophet’s career.

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19 Responses to “Scary Islamic Doctrines”

  1. Khaalidah said

    Oh give it a rest. Pick on someone else.
    http://theveiledtsunami.wordpress.com

  2. foospro86 said

    I’m not picking on anyone; I asked a valid question. Why won’t you answer it? Are these doctrines mainstream or not? Why not teach me rather than be dismissive? I appeal to your kindness and generosity of spirit.
    If they are not mainstream, shouldn’t people such as yourself be denouncing them and explaining how they are not supported by the Qur’an, Hadith, or Islamic tradition?

  3. Khaalidah said

    Alright. Let me try to answer this for you.

    As a Muslim of nearly 20 years, and a personborn and raised in the West, I have had the opportunity to 1. consciously choose my faith, 2. know and understand as an adult what I am giving up and gaining, and 3. view Islam and the Western secular understanding as both an offspring and an outsider.

    Does Islam allow lying? No. To unbelievers? No and yes. No: becasue lying is wrong. Yes when telling the truth puts you in danger. Prime example: Aftger 911, which I believe was reprehensible, many Muslims (articularly the foreign Muslims) began going by Western names, and the women stopped wearing the head scarf. When asked if they were uslim, they woud say “no”. All this in order to conceal their identities. While there are plenty of people who are enlightened enough to be tolerant of other people’s faiths despite not agreeing with them, there are many who are content to live in the darkness, persecute, harrass, and scapegoat the first Ahmad, Umar, or Fatima they meet.

    Can we initiate and maintain real relationships wth non Musims. Sure, this is why it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman. These people are called People of the Book. It is further said in the Qur’an that those closest to us Muslims are the ones who call themselves Christian, and that some of them are really Muslim at heart. This smacks of love and affection and true ties.

    Should I stand to denounce certain ideals? Well I don’t think that is someting that should lie on my shoudlers as a Muslim. I think that it is your responsibility and every other persons responsibility to learn the truth, to never be content to follow the leader, or in many cases the media. Is every Christian called to account for every misdeed and slight done in the name of Jesus? Would that be fair? Are you called to answer for Waco? Jim Jones? Would it be right of me to expect you to answer for that?

    I am never ever ever oppossed to real constructive educational dialogue, but I find it annoying and quite arrogant when people sit in judgement and try to call all Muslims to task. Our way of life is just as valid and decent and respectable as anyone elses. I am a mother and a wife. I am a registered nurse and a student. I have real lasting relationships with non Muslims. But the fact is that I live in a society (my society because I am an American) that looks at me as if I am “not normal”. What ever happened to the “melting pot” ideal? Not to get all sensitive, but it is so disheartening to see some of these blogs, the misinformation, the anger, the disgust, intolerance, and hatred. We al have a right to think what we want, but Ya Allah (Oh my God), where is the world coming to when people are happy hating for the sake of hate?

    • So they denied allah? By doing this they are saying “yes islam is evil and violent but we chose to ignore this” Wow,what a statement for me as an atheist to use in debates.What happened to the guy in the story book who denied jesus 3 times? I thought your supposed to die for your beliefs,you go a better place,i guess not.All the best.

  4. foospro86 said

    So you addressed taqiyya/kitman but not naskh. Please be thorough and address this concept too, especially since it has the widest and most dangerous implications. Or is this term completely foreign to you?

    If you take the Qur’an seriously, how can you justify your friendships with non-Muslims in the face of 3:28? Yes, Christians and Jews are People of the Book, but such a title confers little in terms of treatment (dhimma and jizya).

    Yes (!), if David Koresh tries to justify his evil using Christian precepts or texts, then Christians have a responsibility to denounce such attempts AND explain how such precepts and texts were misused or actually ignored. Indeed, in Catholicism, the Church excommunicates those who by their very words and actions have seriously deviated from established doctrine and are likely to lead others astray. You have every right to expect me to denounce violent radicals who claim the mantle of Christianity in some form. So I see no reason why I can’t expect non-violent Muslims to articulate how their religion has been misinterpretted, if this is the case.

    Just as Christians must be able to explain to non-Christians how they interpret the violence/harshness of the Old Testament, Muslims, no less, must be able to explain the more violent, anti-infidel suras of its texts. I am not hating for the sake of hate; I’m citing your own scripture and taking you to task for an explanation. Ignoring these citations and citing other more peaceful passages gets us nowhere. Even this act of ignoring has to be reasonably explained.

  5. Khaalidah said

    There was no attempt on my part ot ignore your question(s). To be quite honest, I thought that I would attempt to explain a bit because it appeared that you wanted to know. That said, I disagree with you. I am NOT obliged to answer for anyone. This line of questioning is no different than when a white person asks a black person to answer for something that another black person has done. Its arrogant presumption. I don’t owe the Christian world an explanation about anything. What is it you’re looking for? Do you want me to make it more palatable for you? Do you want me to denounce my holy book and my way of life so that you can point and say see, its not all its cracked up to be? I believe in EVERYTHING that is in the Qur’an. EVERY SINGLE BIT OF IT. If its there, then I believe in it. Taking me to task? How dare you. Who are you to take me to task for anything or anyone. And for that matter, who am I to try to answer for millions of other people who call themselves Muslim and who may all live and breath Islam differently, who’s faiths are of varying degrees?

    Ask me to exlain something that you genuinely don’t understand. Sure. But take me to task? You’ve got to be kidding. Or out of your mind.

  6. foospro86 said

    Please don’t get upset. I just want direct and complete answers to all my questions, that’s all I ask. I would not take offense at someone asking similar challenging questions of my own religion and would be happy to subject myself to any questions you might have of me, if you wish. I believe we learn more about others and ourselves by challenging each others’ beliefs, no matter if they are black or white, Muslim or Christian. Don’t you?
    Is it too much to ask to have someone explain why they believe something? Is it too much to ask you to help me understand what seem like very violent passages of the Qur’an?

    Again, won’t you tell me what you know about naskh, if anything?

    I think it is a problem when there are (apparent) contradictions or inconsistencies within a religious system. How can I believe that Islam is a religion of peace or only fights defensive wars when I read “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate” (Qur’an 9:73)? Is this also a “bit” of the Qur’an that you believe in? Look, I’d rather not think the worst about Islam, but I am going to need your help to understand verses like that.

    There are Muslims who “live and breath Islam differently” and then go out and commit “reprehensible” acts such as 9-11, no? Do you think this should be tolerated? If Muslims such as yourself around the world do not confront these people, who will? And of course, I wonder how people such as yourself would argue theologically. How would you argue from the Qur’an to show the terrorist that he is wrong in what he does?

  7. shelly in usa said

    i think you did not ask nicely enough. you sounded like u were on a high horse.

  8. foospro86 said

    Look, I’m sorry, but it gets very frustrating when people dodge my questions.

    I think the deaths of 3,000 Americans committed with the sanction of violent Qur’an verses deserves some straight talk.

    • janna said

      It was very interesting dialog. It started like Khaalidah wanted to explain how great is Muslim faith and It was very interesting dialog. It started like Khaalidah wanted to explain, but she could not do it. Questions were logical, nice, Foospro86 really wanted to get answers (as I would like to know… may be I misunderstood some things about Muslims). But she put herself in the position when instead of giving direct answers she said “I don’t owe the Christian world an explanation about anything.” This behavior indicates that person don’t have arguments. Then she started swearing that “I believe in EVERYTHING that is in the Qur’an.”. Nobody asked her about this. She can believe in whatever she wants. But questions were valid, tone of conversation was extremely polite and nice. Why Shelly you think that it was not nice enough? If someone (in this case Foospro86 gives very scary fact from Qur’an as an argument, it’s not like he is not polite or not nice. IT IS THE FACT (VERSUS FROM Qur’an SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. , but she could not do it. Questions were logical, nice, Foospro86 really wanted to get answers (as I would like to know… may be I misunderstood some things about Muslims). But she put herself in the position when instead of giving direct answers she said “I don’t owe the Christian world an explanation about anything.” This behavior indicates that person don’t have arguments. Then she started swearing that “I believe in EVERYTHING that is in the Qur’an.”. Nobody asked her about this. She can believe in whatever she wants. But questions were valid, tone of conversation was extremely polite and nice. Why Shelly you think that it was not nice enough? If someone (in this case Foospro86 gives very scary fact from Qur’an as an argument, it’s not like he is not polite or not nice. IT IS THE FACT (VERSUS FROM Qur’an SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

  9. A Muslim said

    Please completely read these two articles in order to understand the meaning of Nansakh and Abrogation(the greatest lie against Islam).

    1. http://www.quran-islam.org/89.html

    2. http://www.quran-islam.org/252.html

    • Tony Listi said

      Those links don’t really help. They both go to the same homepage. I’m not going to spend time searching for stuff on the site. Send me specific links addressing those two specific Islamic concepts.

      Do you agree that the actions and words of Muhammad and his early followers are the final authority in how one should interpret the Qur’an? This is really the most important question everyone has to answer about Islam and every religion.

  10. Lyle said

    God is too Holy to accept bribes from us on judgment day. It’s an insult to think that he will pervert his perfect flawless justice in order to show mercy to a criminal who sinned against him. A price has to be paid. You can either accept his gift of salvation via the price he paid for us or pay it yourself in eternity forever. That is your only options. God will be glorified for our salvation not man. I’m sorry if you wicked heart won’t let you understand but not as sorry as you will be when you find out how Holy God really is. Don’t limit God to what he can do. He took the form of a man in order to go the full distance in saving us. He didn’t cheat or allow us to determine his limitations. Be thankful, repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Most of all cry out for wisdom and pray he hears you.

  11. Chameleon said

    Concealment is most definitely a component of Shiism from what I hear second hand, but not Islam. Lying or being hypocritical and duplicitous (i.e., fake) in relationships is completely unacceptable, and I have never ever heard or read any other Muslim advocate, let alone preach, this principle to me or any other Muslim. If it is part of Islam, then someone is sure going out of their way to hide it!

    By the way, when a translation of the Quran refers to “friends”, it is usually more appropriately translated as “allies”, as in political or military allies, whether formalized by treaty or not. It is exhorting Muslims not to take non-Muslims (unbelievers) as allies in preference to (i.e., to the detriment of) believers. That is really all there is to it. Please see my extensive comments in another post regarding the so-called “violent” verses of the Quran for further explanation.

  12. Chameleon said

    I was remiss in not addressing the abrogated verse issue. I only addressed the “concealment” issue in my other post. A more accurate translation (from Ahmed Ali’s translation of the Quran) reads as follows for verse 2:106: “When We cancel a message (sent to an earlier prophet) or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with one better or one similar.” Another good translation, from Yusuf Ali, is as follows: “None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.” Both Ahmed Ali and Yusuf Ali make in clear in their commentary that this does not refer to verses of the Quran. It could refer perhaps to parables used in earlier books (revelations) vs. different parables in the Quran, for example, where the purpose of the message is the same but the actual message (parable, wording or whatever) is different. In short, the Quran is simply acknowledging the relevance of historical context, that even though the intent of its messages stays the same as was revealed to earlier prophets, the actual messages can and do change depending on when they were revealed.

    As for consistency of the Quran, it is perfectly consistent based on all that I have ever read, and I have read it at least several times using numerous translations, which helps highlight poor translations, since only the Arabic version is considered the actual Quran. Verse 39:23 of the Quran makes this clear, that there is no inconsistency whatsoever: “God has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message, in the form of a Book, consistent with itself.” Ahmed Ali’s translation says basically the same thing but uses a bit more stilted language in calling the Book “conformable in its juxtapositions” (i.e., all verses comform with each other in juxtaposition or comparison to one another). I have already addressed in another post how all the so called “violent and intolerant” verses are perfectly consistent with a religion of tolerance and peace, as expressed in many verses in the Quran. The short summary answer here is that fighting is permitted in Islam, as it is in all democratic nations and as endorsed by virtually every Christian and Jew, to prevent oppression and persecution, and as a matter of self defense. Unilateral aggression, let alone indiscriminate terrorism, is simply not permitted by Islam, period. If persecution, especially of a religious nature as the Quran warns, is allowed because everyone is always turning the other cheek and not protecting their faith, one’s religion itself will be in danger of being razed at its foundations and replaced by doctrines that are totally contradictory to the original doctrine. Many terrorists — and, ironically, their unwitting Christian opponents — are doing just this in portraying Islam as a violent and intolerant religion to further their own ideological agendas. It won’t just be houses of worship being destroyed when religious oppression occurs, but their spiritual foundations, which is the essence of the message in verses 22:39-40 of the Quran, which I believe best sums up the justification for fighting in Islam:

    “Permission is granted those (to take up arms) who fight because they were oppressed. God is certainly able to give help to those who were driven from their homes for no other reason than they said: ‘Our Lord is God.’ And if God had not restrained some men through some others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where the name of God is honoured most, would have been razed. God will surely help those who help Him. Verily God is all-powerful and all-mighty.” (22:39-40).

    • Tony Listi said

      Do you agree that the actions and words of Muhammad and his early followers are the final authority in how one should interpret the Qur’an? This is really the most important question everyone has to answer about Islam and every religion.

  13. jon rieck said

    I’M a white wasp from canada and i gotta say something, i really dont think that the 19 men that were said to have committed the acts of 911 had anything to do with it. And i’m not going to go into crazy conspiracy theory’s so don’t fall off your chair. Have you ever heard of operation gladio, or the strategy of tension that is clearly written in U.S. army field ops, or operation able danger, the fact the the bin laden family has huge tie’s to the Bush’s and that they have nicnames for eachother. If you knew how many people across the globe have actually been killed in the name of the mighty dollar, i can tell you what fueled 911 it’s something we were not told here in north america in 2000 sadam hussain screwed the petro dollar by switching all his oil sales to euro’s which means that we actually had to sell goods and services to get the oil instead of just printing money and taking it. That is what forced the bush’s to invade the middle east at that point they didnt even have a choice if they would have sat by and allowed that to just happen then all the other oil producing country’s would have followed suit and we would be fuck’d pardon my french but it’s true, and do you want to know the first thing the U.S. did when they invaded iraq. i mean the very first thing, they switched it back so they could pay in dollars and in doing so short changed the iraqi’s out of 17% of there god given profits. We are the robber barons of the world and i hope we pay for our theft.

    • Tony Listi said

      Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. You totally refuse to acknowledge or address the reality of jihadist Islam.

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