Founding Fathers on Charity, Wealth Redistribution, and Federal Govt.
Posted by Tony Listi on November 24, 2007
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
-Benjamin Franklin
“To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816
“A wise and frugal government … shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.”
-Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated.”
-Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors, ME 15:332
“The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to E. Carrington, May 27, 1788
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”
-John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787
James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, elaborated upon this limitation in a letter to James Robertson:
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”
In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”
-James Madison, 4 Annals of congress 179 (1794)
“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.”
-James Madison
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the general welfare, the government is no longer a limited one possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one subject to particular exceptions.” James Madison, “Letter to Edmund Pendleton,”
-James Madison, January 21, 1792, in The Papers of James Madison, vol. 14, Robert A Rutland et. al., ed (Charlottesvile: University Press of Virginia,1984).
“An elective despotism was not the government we fought for; but one in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among the several bodies of magistracy as that no one could transcend their legal limits without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.”
-James Madison, Federalist No. 58, February 20, 1788
“There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”
-James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788
See more at http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/quotes.html
Conservative Colloquium 
bodhi1 said
This is a great post. I added it to my del.icio.us account and will use it for future articles, including the one I’m writing about the general welfare clause.
Nice work.
Charles said
Unfortunately, most (all?) of the checks and balances built into the Constitution were destroyed by the unCivil War which, among other things changed a verb. Before the war, the reference was “…these United States are…” Afterward, the reference became “…the United States is…”
Woodman said
The Preamble to the US Constitution actually reads,
“WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
PROVIDE for the common defense and PROMOTE the general welfare. Allot of people believe that it reads “provide the general welfare”. Provide and promote are two different things.
foospro86 said
Thanks to the 3 of you for your comments. I agree whole-heartedly.
Why wouldn't this be a good idea? - Page 6 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum said
[…] the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government. -Thomas Jefferson The Founding Fathers on Charity, Wealth Redistribution, and Federal Government __________________ For no man may rise up To enslave any other Made free by Design of our God […]
Tom Mullen said
It has always been laughable to me that the Democrats claim to be “the party of Jefferson,” given Jefferson’s condemnation of wealth redistribution. Excellent quotes in addition to my favorite! (To take from one…)
J. Karl said
Thomas Jefferson was the original republican (small ‘R’). The only reason some on the left claim him is for his “wall of separation” statement. When it comes to individual responsibility; states’ rights; individual freedom; free enterprise; and the abilty to protect and accumulate personal wealth, there’s no question Jefferson is much closer to the Republicans of today than he is to the socialist/Marxist Democrat Party. No question.
dissenting voice said
you’re all goofy. How absurd that you feel you can stretch a founding father’s quote and try to align them with your way of thinking. Common theme is that you’re all selfish…nobody gets anything from me, dammit! Democracy means winners and losers by it’s very nature, doesn’t it? (see, Thomas Jefferson…or was it John Adams(?)said so!), and if you’re on the short end of the stick…too damn bad! Should have known better than to be born poor! What’s wrong with you? You don’t deserve health care! Or retirement! Or food! Or education/hope of a better life! Sanctity of human life? You betcha! So long as it doesn’t cost me anything. No interest in the common good? Aren’t we all entitled to some basic human needs? Or do you agree that we all are entitled to a reasonable life, as long as it’s not on your dime? It’s all about money (I’ve got it – you don’t, and don’t even think about touching mine) isn’t it? Remember the story of stone soup…all were hungry, all contributed, all ate and were satisfied. Or Good King Wenceslas (must have been a good guy…had a song written about him and we’ve been singing it for a few hundred years…or was that a socialist weenie plot to subvert the real America, too? Talk about that with your kids around the tree this Christmas). Well, delude yourselves all you want, but all we have in this world is each other, and I’m hoping that if and when I need help, there’s someone there to give it to me.
johnf said
First of all, with your attitude of entitlement and hatred for those who have, you don’t stand much of a chance at winning friends and influencing people to help you when your down and out. Secondly,it seems that you are deluded by the notion that haves have because they are somehow lucky and or dishonest. This is a chimerical idea by and large and you are selling your self way too short. I think you show potential to be a have by the mere fact that you can read and write. I think you lack courage and drive. These are the things, when coupled with the freedom to act and keep the fruits of ones labors that produce winners. Your attitude produces bitterness and divisiness as well as losers and hatred toward all who refuse to let you demand from them those things which they rightfully earned by their own industry. Surely you are not saying you are too stupid and unambitious to achieve a good and decent life in a free country with limitless opportunity. I don’t imagine that you think ALL haves are of such a superior intellect that you stand no chance of equaling their achivements or surpassing them even, do you? You sound so bitter and hate filled it is truly a sad thing. I know of no “haves”, personaly that refuse to help less fortunate persons, but denegrating us is in no way a good tactic for achieving your goal of recieving a handout if you need it. I would oppose helping you based on your arrogance and hatred for me and others you have never even met. I like helping people who are good people and NEED help but are expiriencing a hard time beyond their control. If you can help yourself and refuse to or are too lazy to set and achieve goals and a happy life, I am un interested in doing it for you. Why don’t you move to cuba or venezuala? Oh yeah, that takes effort.
Dave said
I’m with JohnF – perfect post and captures 100% of the concept of personal liberty and individual responsibility.
Jefferson also wrote: “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” and
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.”
These quotes state the antithesis of the liberal perspective – and refute Dissenting Voice. He wants comfort and “free stuff” and the resulting taxation and regulation that goes along with it. Jefferson’s intent was to say that liberty is not easy, not comfortable but the alternative (Obama-nomics) is much worse.
Long live the Founders’ concepts and may we purge the cancer of liberalism from the country.
johnf said
“Well, delude yourselves all you want, but all we have in this world is each other”
It may be true that we have each other,it is also true that we can and should rely primarily on our own selves if there be no reason we can not. Look in the mirror next time you think about asking for a handout. Ask yourself if there is any way at all that you can do it on your own. If the answer be yes, then that is what you should do, for to do otherwise is an act of immorality that has limitless consequences. Do not start upon these slippery slopes of dependency for if you do, you will surely never be a real free person. To depend on others for your wants and needs is to live a life that is indeed litle more then a slaves existance. If your answer be no, then by all means, seek out a charity that will help you in your needs because in this country, you will find no shortage of goodwill as long as those who are capable of prodution and industry are free to persue thier own selfinterested ambitions. Good King Wencesles was acting in his own self interest when doing those acts of good will. Do you think for one second that if he derived no good feeling or satifaction for doing it he would have wasted one spare second on any of them? If you want to take your own advice, fall on your own sword and suffer all of the depravities and neglects of this life, saving the money that could be spent on someone who is appreciative and needy from being spent on you, and choc up your suffering to the greater good of your fellow man. Why not you suffer rather than someone else? If you do at least you will be consistant in your beliefs and practicing what you preach.
Shane said
First of all the US is NOT A DEMOCRACY IT IS A REPUBLIC. Second of all if you want to give away your belongings thats up to you, but you have no right to take from others whether they are more prosperous or not. Either way you cut it there are simple words we use to describe it “THEFT”, STEALING”, “LARCENY”. I could go on. Third us “Goofy” people have something called “Common Sense”. It tells us that the type of government that does not respect Property Rights is by definition Oppressive. It is simply not the governments job to take from one and give to another.
Tommy said
In addition, allotment of charity should be decided by those that give up the fruits of their labor to provide it. Government by nature is incapable of distinguishing between those that deserve help and those that take advantage of it.
Dave said
America a Republic?
Not any more.
Remember Obama telling “Joe the Plumber”
“We need to transfer your wealth”
Ignorant Americans voted in a Marxist/Socialist in Barrack Hussein Obama (A muslim name to boot). Too bad America, you lose in time. I’ve watched this development happen since 1962.
Theano said
Dissenting Voice is correct when he says you are taking quotes of the Founding Fathers out of context to support your own views. That is exactly what you are doing! The Founders were not Conservatives. They were radical free-thinkers. Their Revolution overthrew the monarchical power of England and the established churches. As an example of their radical way of thinking, Jefferson said that the United States would become a paradise by “taxing the rich.”
Jefferson wrote the following to his friend Thaddeus Kosciusko, a Polish general who came to America and joined our Revolution against British imperialism/subjegation:
“Knowing your affections to this country, and the interest you take in whatever concerns it, I therein gave you a tableau of its state when I retired from the administration.
Peace … has been our principle, peace is our interest, and peace has saved to the world this only plant of free and rational government now existing in it. If it can still be preserved, we shall soon see the final extinction of our national debt, and liberation of our revenues for the defence and improvement of our country.
These revenues will be levied entirely on the rich, the business of household manufacture being now so established that the farmer and laborer clothe themselves entirely. The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied. The poor man who uses nothing but what is made in his own farm or family, or within his own country, pays not a farthing of tax to the general government, but on his salt; and should we go into that manufacture also, as is probable, he will pay nothing. Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings. However, therefore, we may have been reproached for pursuing our Quaker system, time will affix the stamp of wisdom on it, and the happiness and prosperity of our citizens will attest its merit. And this, I believe, is the only legitimate object of government, and the first duty of governors.”
Johnquixote said
I don’t see any mention of an income tax here. The taxes Jefferson is talking about are on imported items. Since only the rich purchased imported items, only the rich paid taxes. However, it was the choice of the rich man to purchase those items. He wasn’t forced to under threat of jail. This is a luxury tax. I have not problem with a luxury tax (other than the fact that it discourages purchases, costs jobs and slows the economy).
Theano said
Johnquixote,
I am well aware of the kind of taxes Jefferson was talking about. The point is that Jefferson clearly stated that America would become a paradise for regular working people [farmers] without the workers spending a penny. He forthrightly places the funding burden for canals, roads, schools, etc. on the rich. Today’s conservatives never mentions this.
Conservatives evidently understand very little of the Founders-–who were radically opposed to the concentration of wealth and power in the colonies– so much so that they fought a Revolution to end the power concentrated in the hands of the monarchy!
The Founders were also concerned by the concentration of land ownership in the hands of so few. Conservatives should know–but apparently don’t–-that the Founders were students of the Classics. Most were literate in Greek and Latin and understood the warnings of the Ancients– Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, et al., that a Republic could only succeed if the wealth of the nation was equally distributed, otherwise the wealthy would end up with the political power [oligarchy/plutocracy] and the republic would cease to exist…
Or as James Madison stated in a letter to Jefferson, 1791: “The stock-jobbers will become the pretorian band of the Government, at once its tool and its tyrant; bribed by its largesses, and overawing it by clamours and combinations.”
Also note:“No man ought to own more property than needed for his livelihood; the rest, by right, belongs to the state.” Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine in his Agrarian Justice suggested that a tax on inherited wealth could fund a social-security like program for those without the benefits of fortune.
Our Founders were Radical thinkers!
joe channell said
To dissenting voice. I entirely agree with your ending statement. If I am in need I pray someone is there to assist me. That is the responsibility we have to each other. Although it is not the governments place to do it. Jesus said you do it. No place in scripture will you find him saying let the government do it. We have so many people that believe it is the governments place to provide for us. That the government owes us. Politicians have created a nanny state and we want our stuff. If you need help ask but it is not the responsibility of the USA to take care of anyone from cradle to grave.
jmm124567 said
Dissenting Voice,
How about a little personal responsibility instead of sticking your hand out for free stuff?
pat said
wow dissenting, you are on the wrong site. first off, your entire knowledge of a democratic system is childish and wrong. a democratic system is simply a form of government where the power rests in the hands of the people. since we are so large, however, having a town hall meeting and discussing issues isn’t practical so we elect representatives. also democracy isn’t win or lose, that’s what’s called a presidential system, a parliamentary system is different. so if your could, please think before trying to guilt trip people into believing your way. also you make it sound like all conservatives are hoarding their money and not giving it to anyone. the whole thing is ill give my money to people i care about, i dont want it going to some girl with a kid in new york or a lazy asshole in florida. my family was poor when i was born but my dad worked hard and risked alot to make money instead of sitting around bitching about being dealt a bad hand ( that would be you, marxist.) so how about you contribute your dimes and have your damn soup, ill go out, work hard, work long, put in extra effort, and hopefully be able to afford a steak.
Christi said
wow pat i completely agree with you. my dad lived in a tent when my mom was pregnant with my oldest sister and he worked his ass off and now owns his own successful real estate company. No one deserves everything for doing nothing.
Blue Collar Gal said
Pat & Christi,
I feel we are kindred spirits. My dad came from a poor family; raised on the wrong side of the tracks in Knoxville, TN. The things are he has told me many times how he never felt like he was poor. His grandmother worked hard cleaning other people’s homes, his grandfather worked for the railroad, and his Mom waited tables (really father unknown). It never occurred to him or his family that the government or “rich people” owed them anything. The value of faith, education, and hard work were the cornerstones for himself and his family then and today. He worked himself up from nothing and now he has passed on his construction company to my brother and me. The great thing about the U.S. is that it IS the land of OPPORTUNITY. Anyone of us can be ANYTHING we want to be if we are willing to put up the SWEAT EQUITY to make out dreams a reality. Dissenting Voice needs to put on his big boy panties, stop whining, and get over himself. Stop taking fishes from anyone offering one and learn how to fish for goodness sake.
This growing notion of entitlement and dependence on government is on the verge of bankrupting this entire country. What is not fair is the negative impact it will have on those of us who have worked hard to achieve our American Dream.
Dave said
Great post Blue Collar Gal – all true and very well said.
B.N. said
Sweat equity from PUBLIC ASSISTANCE? SHame on you! It isn’t right to get help ever. YOU should do Everything on your own!
foospro86 said
Dissenting Voice, I didn’t “stretch a founding father’s quote and try to align them with your way of thinking.” I presented MANY quotes and they themselves state what the conservative position is. Just admit it, liberalism hates the Founding and all that it stood for.
B.N. said
Don’t forget there were other people beyond the founding fathers….ie, the people!
strych909 said
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that all the people I’ve met who have come from poverty and worked hard to earn some money are conservative. Dissent, we would not need all these entitlement programs and people would be able to afford what they need if 25% (if around minumum wage, otherwise much more!)of their paycheck was not already given to the government on payday. If you think government can spend your money and run your life better than you, America is (or at least was) not the place for you. The Framers put THEIR LIVES and THEIR FORTUNES in jeopardy to create this Blessed Nation. They created a government that is undeniably conservative in nature; that is the LEAST amount of government intrusion into people’s lives as possible. This is their Nation, not ours.
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Darian L. Smith said
All these points are well taken. We too often forget that “shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned” also includes bottom line working class. Not just entrepeneurs.
The real question then is, “how much bread does labor deserve? And how much bread does government and the private enterprise deserve?
Where is the balance that is best for all? We are now seeing that an imbalance to any of the 3 points on the triad can mean disaster for the whole system.
Finding the right balance to this question will determine if our Republic succeeds or fails.
Therefore it behooves us to design a system that equitably flows capital to the right proportions. Allowing our system to run unbridled has proven to be unwise. Also large central plans have been shown to be inefficient as well.
So what is the balance?
THERE IS SUCH A SOLUTION, and it is a solution that is compatible with the philosophies of both the left and the right. That solution is profit-sharing. More specifically, A PROFIT-SHARING TAX CREDIT. It would allow businesses to plow up to 20% of net profits back to employees on a regular basis. It would then give that business a tax credit for that redistribution of capital.
Even Ronald Reagan was a strong advocate of profit-sharing as a means for “ expanded capital ownership that can bring economic betterment to the people.” (P. 36 Payback
at http://www.profitsharinguprising.com a free online treatise on real profit-sharing)
PLEASE NOTE the “forward” in the treatise. It is written by John Huddleston, former Chief of the Budget and Planning Division at the International Monetary Fund.
He says, “It (THE PROFITSHARING TAX CREDIT) may be the most practical way to get Congress engaged.”
It allows bottom-line employees to keep a fair share of the fruits of their labor before the banks, CEOs, government or stockholders, can misuse it.
This is NOT a deferred profit-sharing “savings” plan, nor is it a mere tax credit.
It is a decentralized, built-in, equitable system of balancing capital to the people who create the wealth.
It is the missing link of conservative supply-side theory as well as the missing link of liberal economic democracy. It is a politically neutral concept that dovetails both liberal and conservative ideals.
Profit-sharing is a PROVEN management strategy to improve morale and productivity.
The profit-sharing tax credit will increase household income substantially, especially if there are 2 working adults.
It will make healthcare premiums and mortgages easier to manage.
It is both business friendly and beneficial to the worker.
It will increase national productivity as well as local productivity.
It will create a built-in, regular economic stimulus. It increases supply as well as demand.
More Jobs are the inevitable result of increased demand.
It will maximize employment because old dead-end jobs are transformed into well-paid partnerships.
It will mobilize the unrecorded unemployed, as well as older workers to get a job, as more profit-sharing enhanced jobs sprout up from increased demand.
It will create a wider tax base and more federal revenue.
This new revenue is may delay the need for tax increases.
It will also replenish the Social Security and Medicare coffers, via increased withholdings.
For the average person, it makes achieving economic self-sufficiency easier to achieve “ on-the-street”, without additional education, thereby
easing the strain on our safety net programs, and on our national budget.
It will compete with the “drugs and guns” underground economy; reducing crime.
It will restore moral leadership to America, by creating a new more egalitarian model.
It will refine capitalism to the system that would make our forefathers proud.
It will help us get out of debt by creating greater revenue, and restoring strength to the dollar.
It stimulates as well as stabilizes the economy.
It will pay for itself from increased productivity and a wider tax base.
But even a new green economy will not change things if a fair share of the fruits of labor is not returned to the workers who produce that wealth.
It is revolutionary in the most positive way!
This is the economic equivalent to cold fusion!
All it needs is for a few enlightened and influential people to “get it” and run with it.
The logic is clear and the solution is right in front of our nose!
Where is the flaw in this logic?
Dr. Darian Lance Smith
This strategy can be tested on a trial basis in a small region for a year.
Help spread the word.
Our future depends on it.
Mike said
Dr. Smith, there is major issue with your idea. It requires force, as does all taxation.
Don’t believe that taxation requires force? Quit paying your taxes, refuse to pay the fines and penalties and resist being imprisoned. Government agents WILL kill you for resisting.
The truth that is always ignored by marxists (as you seem to be) is that “bottom-line” employees DO keep the fruits of their labors, and that those fruits are not stolen by their employers or bankers. The fruit of your labor is called your paycheck. Dissatisfied with it? Find a different employer or get a better job. These things take effort, though and not some entitlement that is handed you by government force.
Why do I get the feeling that most of your paycheck is derived from money stolen from US taxpayers?
B.N. said
They fine you…stick you in jail…but kill you for not paying taxes? That must be why people die of old age and have their houses repossessed for not paying property taxes for the past thirty years…the government got sick of them and sent an assassin who poisoned their bran muffins
Darian said
I am a business owner and earn my own profits. If part of my taxes could be distributed to my employees instead of the government, that means they have more money to spend on other peoples business, and so on. You are to quidk to judge Mike.
James said
That is why we need the FairTax http://www.fairtax.org You get to keep YOUR paycheck, there are NO income taxes and YOU decide when the government will get any of your money.
Jonathan said
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”
-Benjamin Franklin
What powerful words from Franklin. I am so glad to have hope in Ron Paul for this election. He is truly the closest thing we have that resembles our Founding Fathers.
B.N. said
He dropped out. Sniff-sniff…
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[…] To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816 […]
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[…] Sweetness & light, Conservative Colloquium, and other sources. See also Walter Williams’ collected quotes about the […]
The Conservative Hill Billy said
Reblogged this on theconservativehillbilly.
Jim Workman said
Charity is not an appropriate function of government because government has nothing to give without first violating the property rights of someone else.
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politicalconnection said
Have you read this? http://biblicalconnection.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/the-pope-crush-individualism-destroy-free-enterprise-kill-nationalism-and-redistribute-wealth
Tony Listi said
I’m getting really tired of seeing all this slander against the pope. The article you posted totally mischaracterizes the speech.
The pope seems to be politely slapping down the council that overstretched its bounds.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121203_justpeace_it.html
Google Translate:
“The Church certainly does not have the task of suggesting, in terms of legal and political, of the material embodiment of such an international order, but offers to those who are responsible for these principles for reflection, criteria for judgment and practical guidelines that can ensure the ‘anthropological and ethical framework around the common good (cf. Enc. Caritas in Veritate, 67). On reflection, however, is to keep in mind that you should not imagine a superpower, concentrated in the hands of a few, which dominates over all peoples, taking advantage of the weak, but that all authority must be understood first of all as a moral force, faculty to influence the second reason (cf. Pacem in Terris, 27), ie as an authority owned, limited expertise and the right.”
Though I wish the Church would just keep it’s head out of practical policy matters and stick to principles.
politicalconnection said
I don’t need the link. I included the link in my article. If you had read it thoroughly, you would have seen that. Having a grandmother who studied to be a nun and who then was led by the Spirit of GOD and His Word out of the Catholic Church, I pray you will stop your worship of the pope and place your faith in Jesus Christ who is always perfect and who never changes His mind. I will place my faith in the One who is Perfect rather than the Roman Pontifex (ancient pagan title) who pretends to be Christ on earth (Vicar or Substitute of Christ). I pray you will do the same and receive peace for your soul. Only the Bible has the Truth and its teaches contradict with that of the popes. The Babylonian religion has more in common with Catholicism. See for yourself. Go to this repository of ancient religious texts: http://www.sacred-texts.com I truly hope you find the Truth, my friend. By the way, my grandmother saw a dead fetus in the toilet at the convent when she visited.
Tony Listi said
You do not seem to be sincerely seeking and promoting the truth. Otherwise, you would have included the pope’s crucial comments that I have cited from the speech.
You are also really ignorant of Catholicism. No Catholic worships the pope. Please educate yourself about Catholicism, so that you can stop slandering it. If you want to criticize Catholicism, get our beliefs right rather than attack straw men.
I start you on your education:
https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-theology/the-papacy/
https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/the-keys-of-the-kingdom-the-papacy-and-papal-infallibility/
https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/50-new-testament-proofs-for-the-pre-eminence-of-st-peter/
politicalconnection said
1) You judge my motives which the Bible forbids.
2) I included a link to all of his comments in my article.
3) You need to be more thorough in your reading.
4) I am highly educated on Catholicism. Stop judging.
5) I have not slandered, but meticulously quoted.
6) You are not GOD. Neither is the Pope.
7) The Bible is the most respected Book on earth, the most published and the most quoted by all major religions. The Roman empire’s version of religion is but one of those major religions. I encourage you to find a better source for your belief system than a man who allows pedophiles to roam the streets after having received advanced knowledge of their actions.
Tony Listi said
1) I questioned your motives. I didn’t judge them.
2) So what? It’s in Italian. You ignored the one passage that shows your entire commentary is false.
4) Anyone who says Catholics worship the pope is extremely ignorant of Catholicism. Please don’t presume to tell us Catholics what we believe.
5) You have slandered him because you have OMITTED the relevant paragraph from his speech that shows your entire commentary is false, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
6) What the heck is your problem? No one is claiming to be God.
7) The Bible is the Sacred Word of God. But where did the Table of Contents page of the Bible come from? If you sincerely seek the truth, seek the answer to that question.
And the pope has no personal responsibility for the grave sins and crimes of certain bishops who did not take appropriate action against abusive priests. Though he has apologized on behalf of the Church.
You really just need to stop hating the pope and educate yourself.
politicalconnection said
The pope is not infallible: http://biblicalconnection.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/god-or-the-popes-whose-opinion-of-the-jews-matters-the-most
Tony Listi said
Again, you are just ignorant of Catholicism and the doctrine of infallibility. Those pope quotes are not official doctrinal teachings provided to the whole Church for belief. A lot of popes have had a lot of incorrect personal and private opinions about a lot of things. There are certain criteria that have to be met for a pope’s statement to be infallible. How about spending more time learning Catholic doctrines before you lash out against it again?
Tony Listi said
The Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church, by the way. You wouldn’t know which writings were authentic Scripture and which were not if it weren’t for the Catholic Church at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage.
politicalconnection said
The Bible was not compiled by Catholics.
The Old Testament was compiled before the time of Christ.
The New Testament was compiled shortly after A.D. 95.
This is history. The lineage of the popes are improvable. Thus, Romans adopt the Bishop of Rome into their lineage. Thus, first real pope was Constantine. His statue is in Vatican City.
The Holy Spirit gave us His Word, not the Roman lords who killed Jesus Christ. Study history, friend. It will help you see the truth.
Tony Listi said
Yes, the Bible was compiled by Catholics. Please educate yourself about the history of the Bible/New Testament canon with special attention paid to the Councils of Hippo and Carthage ratified by popes Siricius and Damasus I in the late 4th century.
http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml
Are you not aware that we have very early listings of the first popes?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272a.htm
“St. Irenaeus, writing between 175 and 190 AD, not many years after his Roman sojourn, enumerates the series from Peter to Eleutherius (Against Heresies III.3.3; Eusebius, Church History V.6)”
You, my friend, are the one who needs to study history and ancient texts from the earliest Christians in the 1st and 2nd century.
https://conservativecolloquium.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-theology/church-fathers/
politicalconnection said
I’m aware of the Vatican’s teaching on these matters. I’ve researched them and found they are straw. Stop quoting from Catholic sources and read other sources. It will amaze you.
Tony Listi said
Your emotional prejudice against Catholicism is really blinding you to history and ancient texts that even Protestants accept as true and authentic:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
Are you saying that the councils of Hippo and Carthage didn’t happen?
Huntsprig said
I love Jefferson quotes!
“The farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of this country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings.”
“Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.”
“The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied… Our revenues liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see his government supported, his children educated, and the face of his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his earnings.”
“My observations do not enable me to say I think integrity the characteristic of wealth.”
“Experience declares that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to… the general prey of the rich on the poor.”
“I may err in my measures, but never shall deflect from the intention to fortify the public liberty by every possible means, and to put it out of the power of the few to riot on the labors of the many.”
“Enough wealthy men will find their way into every branch of the legislature to protect themselves.”
What more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow citizens–a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.”
“The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the whole taxes of the General Government are levied.”
“I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in it’s [sic] birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country.”
“The collection of taxes… has been as yet only by duties on consumption. As these fall principally on the rich, it is a general desire to make them contribute the whole money we want, if possible. And we have a hope that they will furnish enough for the expenses of government and the interest of our whole public debt, foreign and domestic.”
Holy cow the guy was a commie!
Jim Workman said
Not a commie. Just believed that “limited” government would never need more or grow so big that it couldn’t perform it’s necessary functions with that tax system.
Tony Listi said
Where are the citations for those quotes? Even if they are authentic, they don’t prove what you want them to prove.
How many of those quotes refer to state government rather than the general (federal) government? Where’s the context? Jefferson believed the general govt. should do only those few delegated things that the Constitution allowed it to do, but he believed the states could do pretty much whatever they wanted within their own constitutions.
Jefferson later repudiated his support of a progressive tax on the wealthy. “If the overgrown wealth of an individual be deemed dangerous to the state, the best corrective is the law of equal inheritance to all in equal degree; and the better, as this enforces a law of nature, while extra-taxation violates it.” (1816)
http://books.google.com/books?id=JNboM7jQuW8C&pg=RA1-PA175&lpg=RA1-PA175&dq=%22Another+means+of+silently+lessening+the+inequality+of+property+is+to+exempt+all+from+taxation+below+a+certain+point,+and+to+tax+the+higher+portions+of+property+in+geometrical+progression+as+they+rise%22&source=bl&ots=cL-qVz_P0a&sig=uczzOlHCpK3zs76SOCi4aEi5uxE&hl=en&ei=XRLqSuC3GYK0Nqa37ZQN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22Another%20means%20of%20silently%20lessening%20the%20inequality%20of%20property%20is%20to%20exempt%20all%20from%20taxation%20below%20a%20certain%20point%2C%20and%20to%20tax%20the%20higher%20portions%20of%20property%20in%20geometrical%20progression%20as%20they%20rise%22&f=false
No one would say that the wealthy have integrity merely by the fact of their wealth. That’s just a stupid straw man.
And do you know how the wealthy prey on the poor? Primarily by increasing the size and scope of government with unjust laws. Big Govt. sustains unjustly big business, giving bailouts and special privileges and increasing barriers to entry into markets through regulations.
Did you read that quote carefully? Jefferson said that “a wise and frugal Government…shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.” Government is the enemy of labor. Also, he said people should be free in their “own pursuits of industry.”
Jefferson refers to “monied corporations” who are in “defiance to the laws of our country.” He is not opposed to successful and law-abiding corporations; he does not want to punish success.
“duties on consumption” refer to a sales tax. Many conservatives favor the Fair Tax which would abolish the income tax and create a national sales tax.
The rich will always pay more in taxes, no matter what system one sets up. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But the system should be fair and not burden the middle class. The current progressive tax system hurts the middle class because the progressive rate affects them. Most importantly, what government should spend money on and what it shouldn’t needs to be determined first, and there are very few things the government should spend money on (which means everyone’s taxes should be relatively low).
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The Buffett Rule and “Tax Fairness” in Communist Romania said
[…] To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.” — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6, 1816 […]
travelingadventuress said
Reblogged this on Tales of a 20-something adventuress and commented:
Founding Fathers and the Welfare State
Obama: Constitution Flawed without Income Redistribution In It - Page 3 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum said
[…] […]